2nd Amendment to the Constitution of The United States of America

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
- George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

Wednesday, January 11, 2012

Wow, sometimes I can't figure some people out...

I cannot understand how some people in this world think.  Yes I know we are all individuals but this was a mind number for me.  This was a FaceBook thread started by an online friend of mine Erik (not the paratrooper and who works for Beretta BTW)...pay attention down the page when "Monika" chimes in....I think she is a liberal...well, yeah she obviously is with her "I know it all but will tell you I am open to discussion knowing damn well that my opinion will not change" style....

This all started when Erik  posted this picture...



And here is the conversation thread (if you didn't know I am "Pete" in real life and below)


Ali XXXXX practice gun control, use both hands

Erik XXXXX  Yes ma'am :)

Chris XXXXXX Guns are bad mmmmk .. If we just got rid of all the guns no one would have guns to shoot anyone.


Angela XXXXXX Careful what you say, You don't know who is American. Canadians on the other hand are cool, safe and prefer to snowboard and play hockey then shoot guns:)

Preston XXXXXX Really? I know a couple of canucks who'd shoot day in and out more than those other things

Angela XXXXXXXX Hey hey hey..I was just saying that if you want to get away from gun, come to Canada. It is a privilege to have a gun not a right.

Chris XXXXX You'll never be able to get away from Guns. My comment was 100% satire.

Brad XXXXXX Canada's Crime Rate 50 % Higher than U.S.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/24/150547.shtml

Chris XXXXXX This ladies and gentleman is why I own a gun. It is also why I will not date any female who does not have a gun, taser or the like. Having dated a girl who was raped by my room mate. I WILL NOT allow such an event to occur again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Brad XXXXX and castle rock v gonzales

Angela XXXXXX Wow. That is all i am going to say. ( I am a proud Canadian)

PrestonXXXXXX Okay, so what my wife was trying to say is that Canadians are bit more focused when it comes to guns. Though by the numbers there are less gun owners than non gun owners.

Chris XXXXXX You say'n we not focused!?! You say'n we ignant! COUSINS! Git ur guns. w'be goin out.

Chris XXXXXX I'm not saying anything against you or your wife. I meant no disrespect really. Its just even when focused, I believe a gun is a right. Just like self-defense. It evens the playing field among me and my assailant. I'm a big guy, but theres always someone bigger. My life is too precious not to defend. As are the lives around me.

Preston XXXXX Trust me, I agree completely. Think of The origins of the Castle doctrine. That comes from the magna carta, buuut every Canadian doesn't think that right applies to them anymore and thus they lost it.

Angela XXXXXXX Easy there Hubby:)

Angela XXXXXX Lets just go with this. Canadians can play by their own rules and the Americans can play by their amendments.

Erik XXXXX Hey now folks..

Ryan XXXXXX
There is a pretty strong sentiment in Canada to relax restrictions on legal gun ownership and self-defense...

But it is extremely hard for people, even Americans, who have not been exposed to firearms for an extended amount of time to unde...See More

Monika XXXXXX
The constitution and amendments were written in times when there was neither organized police nor army. Today there was no need for private gun ownership based on 2nd amendment.
Polish Constitution was the 2nd in the world (written a few years after yours) and the 1st in Europe. Since then it has been rewritten a couple of times because the times changed. Many other countries have rewritten their constitution to adopt to current times.
Instead of living in the past, America should write a new constitution and get rid all the amendments, especially the 2nd one because it does not apply to today's system.

Erik XXXXXX
Monika, I welcome your viewpoint and input and value that you are indeed entitled to it, however I must disagree with it.

The purposes of the 2nd Amendment go much deeper than just for self protection. I don't have the time to go into as much depth as I would like at this time, but I'd be happy to do so later on if you'd like. Suffice it to say that self protection is, while an integral part of the 2nd Amendment, not the entire point of that particular Amendment.

Mark XXXXXX
Monika, it's always more helpful in these kinds of discussions to acknowledge the current reality rather than just talk about what we all wish should be. We all have our own versions of utopia that aren't always compatible with others versions, and more to the point, utopian thinking never results in real change. Utopia is a place that can never be.

You just can't get rid of all the guns in this country. There are too many, nobody knows where they are, and people aren't going to give them up willingly. So how do you make your view of what's right a reality under those circumstances?

Pete XXXXXX
No organized police or Army? seriously..head...4th point of contact, remove former from latter please...ever heard of the Continental Army?...you know the one that Washington commanded...still around in 1887....police? you think the entire system of laws and punishment just went away when the Brits left? And you do realize we have written and adopted new amendments (hence the term) that have not only added to the Constitution but have also removed former parts of it? And yes, if I were Poland and coming out of half a century of communist rule I might write a new one myself...tell you what just for the Polish remark I am going to go buy that Polish Tokarev that I looked at the other day after seeing Erik's..and hey, lets get rid of that pesky 1st amendment you libs throw around so much...

Monika XXXXX Erik send me an email about the other reasons for second amendment and what the word militia means (there is no need for militia now so that is my reasoning against the 2nd amendment)I do not read about the pro and contra for second amendment by others so it would be nice to hear other views.

Pete XXXX well, there is no "need" for the airbag in your car until an accident either...

Erik XXXX Monika, I'll do that this evening.

Monika XXXXX
Pete, I have lived for many years in many countries and I have more international take on things. Poland is not the only country that changed their const. And now I haven't heard of continental army but will educated myself unlike you not by buying a gun but by reading about it and broaden my views and knowledge
Mark I understand your view. It's not utopia that there are countries in Europe that exist and function without private gun ownership. It took probably decades to make that work but it was possible. So I don't think it's utopia.
Most people are happy if they have a dry and warm place to live, friends and family and some food to share with them. That is the basic happiness. They dont think about guns. And then there are few that need to have guns to be happy.
Question: why do you have or want to have a gun? What is it about that it makes it so important to you?

Mark XXXXXX
In the case of America, I think it is utopian. I think you may be underestimating just how many guns there are here. Last I checked, there are well over 320 million guns in this country. Very few states require any sort of registration with any agency, so we don't know where they are or who owns them. And we know that the vast majority of gun owners simply won't give them up willingly.

Take that into account with the complicated and time-consuming process of amending the constitution and it's pretty clear that it's something that will never happen. At least with the consent of the people anyway. And without that, what do we have? Not much.

You're right about one thing, we don't need guns to be happy. I was happy before I ever owned guns, and I could live a nice life without them too. But I enjoy them. I get satisfaction from shooting the same way that an archer does when he puts his arrow right in the bullseye. And the way I see it, they're legal for me to own, I'm a respectful and thougtful person, and I am capable of owning them without putting anyone else at risk. So if something bad does happen, earthquakes, riots, etc, (which aren't unheard of in socal), I have the ability to take care of myself, my family, and my friends and neighbors.

I mean, if you can think of a way to ensure that criminals as well as law abiding citizens won't have access to firearms, then that might be a more valid argument. But I've been thinking about this subject for a LONG time and I have yet to hear a compelling argument about how that happens.

Pete XXXXX

I to have lived and worked in foreign countries.... Kuwait, Afghanistan......Europe is a mess...their forced socialist agendas have weakened their economies and lets not also forget that their "enlightened" views lead to two world wars..not exactly a winning record...I too am happy to have a warm place to live, food to eat (and I do eat indeed) and friend and family to share them with...and I own a gun to help protect all of that...the one thing you miss out on the 2nd amendment that Erik was dancing around that ultimately the 2nd amendment was provided a general check against the government....we allow ourselves the right to revolution if we see its the only way to remove an corrupt and unjust government...at the time the constitution was written we had just thrown out one government and left ourselves the means to do it again..thus the allowance in our USC for both organized and unorganized militias to be recognized..now do I actually see another armed revolution in this country, no...but then again I bet European saw a failed art student leading Germany into the 3rd reich either...

Pete XXXXX I would give mine up if somebody would pass a law giving me an armed security detail like many politicians get to sit and watch over me and my family....

Monika XXXXX Pete, Germany being a socialistic country has currently 7.7% unemployment rate, which one cannot say about USA right now.

Monika XXXXXXXXXX
but that is outside the scope of this conversation. I dont believe in guns however I will go sailing in a year or so and I am thinking about getting a gun for protection. Nevertheless, in a country that the Police forces work well, there is...See More

Monika XXXXXXXXXX Pete, there will always be some people who think differently. In every country there are some crazies. As an example, you just had yours a year ago that shoot the governor and few others. Europe changed since the WWII. So has USA. Maybe it is time to move on

Pete XXXXXXXX
but JC, you just said you were thinking of getting one...which is it? a society without gun or one where you can buy one if you think its in your own self interest...maybe when you are out on your boat you can float on up the Rhine and settle in Germany with their excellent police force..I hear they have plenty of jobs there...food fairly well sucks but that too is outside the scope of this conversation...and one last thing, why the hell do people attack you so much?

Monika XXXXXXXXX I am an open minded person who listens to other opinions. I would be very happy to hear to yours if it is constructive and learn more why it is important that the US citizens need a gun. Dont you feel safe in your country?

Mark XXXX So how do you get rid of the guns that are already here Monika?

Ryan XXXXXX
If the US stopped trying to adopt socialist policies which in turn destroys business and jobs, we wouldn't be so bad.

I'll take freedom and unemployment over servitude to the state.

Think of it this way, America has always been the exception to the norm. Why should we start changing now to be more like Europe? A lot of people in Europe continue to immigrate here. It must not be all that bad. If people prefer Europe, they should by all means move there.

The revolutionary war was partially sparked over British troops attempting to disarm colonists.

If you think the basic principals in the Bill of Rights are out dated and archaic because they were adopted over 200 years ago, take a look at most English common law and other legal systems in Europe.

I have firearms for several reasons. Self-defense is the most basic human right aside from reproduction. This includes the right to defend against a tyrannical government. Target shooting, collecting, etc are all separate hobbies themselves.
Think about this, America has never been invaded successfully. We have two large oceans on each side and 50% of households have at least one gun in them. That is why no one has tried even during the World Wars, etc.
An armed populace is one reason America had such a hard time in Vietnam. We weren't ready for farmers and villagers with guns that didn't look like soldiers.

Ryan XXXXX Most basic human instinct/natural right* sorry I'm on my phone.




Monika XXXXXXXXX Ryan, agree with you on many points you have made. I would like to say something to all of it but and it is something we can talk and talk and talk. So, if you ever wanna meet and talk about it then I am up for it :-)
Pete, what can I do that I had parked my car beside an asshole who couldn’t driver? The other situations: bad Karma, bad judgment of people? The point was not my personal life, but the experiences I had in different countries with the police forces. You are becoming personal and straying away from the subject and therefore your argument becomes weak.
Mark, if I tell you how I would go about it, you probably would not like it. But if you ever want to talk about it I am open to discussion on more private ground than FB.



Angela XXXXXX Hey Ryan. I am a gun owner up North in Canada. Non of these comments offend me in any way. No hard feelings, eh :)

Pete XXXXXXXX yours was weak to start with...you want a gun free utopia but want one yourself now that it may suit your needs...you can't have it both ways comrade..oh wait, thats how NYC issues CHL permits..yes I guess you feel that you and you alone are the only person "enlightened by your experiences" to own a firearm for your own protection...and how do you know that karma won't put another bad person in your path - or more importantly to me, mine or my family..I would rather have the right to defend myself and them than rely on a police fore that A) is not right there at the exact moment I may be in danger and B) has no legal requirement to protect me anyway...you are the sheeple we always talk about Monika, except you...I have talked to your kind before, "open minded" as long as I say the same thing you are..want to change the world for the better as long as it fits your view, I bet you occupied recently, didn't you? Socialist paradise, all for the common good as long as I get to sail around the world then...with my gun of course which you can't have...
Monika XXXXXXXXX Pete, Only because I am thinking about one does not mean I am gonna get one, it is something I consider, in case I decide to sail into more dangerous areas. I do NOT think about getting a gun while I live here and never thought about one while I was in Europe. Do you see the difference? I live here, I feel safe, I dont need a gun. But you do

Pete XXXXXXXX you don't live where I do now do you? you make it sound like we are in the same apartment complex or something...it looks like we are half a country apart to me...the same reason many of our current gun laws are allowed to be state issues instead of federal ones...what might be right for you may not be right for me...

Pete XXXXXXXX...and buying and owning a gun in a country that allows you to do so legally doesn't make sense but putting one into your boat and sailing into international waters and foreign ports does? 

 Monika XXXXXXXXX Pete, we should stop this conversation here. If you want to say what you think send me an email. I think right now this became some sort of your personal vendetta against me. 


Monika XXXXXXXXX BTW I live close to Oakland, one of the most dangerous cities in USA...

Pete XXXXXXXX Oakland...damn, I'd buy a gun..and don't take it personally, its my vendetta against every anti 2A out there in favor of taking away my constitutional rights...


and I'll end this here....
Sorry, lengthy I know.  What I can't get my head around is that this woman, Monika, has been attacked not once, but twice and still doesn't see a need to defend herself until now when she is talking about getting one when she sails around the world.  WTF?  What is it lady a gun free utopia or not?  You can't have it both ways, outlawing guns except for yourself as you see fit as a liberal...oh wait, I think that is how NYC issues concealed carry licenses....Honestly the way her name is spelled, her pro European lilt to her views I think that she is actually Polish anyway (confirmed by Erik this afternoon), her views are probably already cemented in her mind.  I wonder if she ever visited the sites of Auschwitz, Belzec or Sobibor and think how those folks might have felt about self defense?

There is nothing wrong with being a European, I enjoy all of my readers there that I see on my stat counter and wish you all the best.  No I do not agree with how you run your countries necessarily, but an ocean - like a good fence - often makes for good neighbors.  I would like to think that if you are from somewhere other than the US that forbids gun ownership that you come here because you hope to change that someday.
As for me, I thank my God that I was born an American!  No, things are not perfect or pretty in the USA, but I still would prefer to be here than anywhere else!

2 comments:

Huey said...

and she just posted this...I am trying to be civil in making a response...

"Mark, I understand when you say that it is not practical. Americans are used to gun possession as their constitutional right. And therefore the process would be very long (decades) and difficult one. One need start with changing the way of thinking about guns and its possession. I think the first step would be to make the process of obtaining a gun a very difficult and long one. This might discourage few. Then, make the bullets (not the guns itself) very very expensive, so that not everyone can afford it. This could be a start. Rich people do not go around and attack you, the poor people and often not highly educated do out of necessity and sometimes cause they are simply bad people and don’t want to earn living in a honest way.
What needs to be done is to take the incentive away. Means: if you feel safe in your neighborhood then you don’t think about the need of protection. Therefore you don’t think about the need of having a gun. In order to achieve that, you will have to make the society better off financially so that there is less incentive for criminal activity.
Another problem is that America makes a lot of money on warfare products and is involved in many “conflicts” and has a worldwide military presence which supports the military industry. So there is an incentive for the industry to lobby for gun possession as constitutional right. If they were taken out of the equation, the publicity for guns would be less."

Brian said...

WOW that last bit is incredible.

I think you're being trolled; no one is that off their rocker